Il faut avoir une abnégation de moine-martyr pour faire ce métier chez les Big Two. Et plus encore quand on a du talent.
Parfois, des lecteurs me demandent si j'ai essayé de bosser pour Marvel. Juste proposé.
Et vraiment, talent/capacité mises à part, passé aussi le plaisir de fan de dessiner au moins une fois un personnage qu'on a aimé enfant et ado... la réponse est :
Pourquoi perdre une heure de ma vie à contacter des gens qui traitent aussi mal des auteurs, y compris des vétérans absolument talentueux ?
(exemple, également, avec Rick Leonardi dans ton post précédent).
Il n'y a rien à attendre d'eux, plus que jamais, si ce n'est espérer avoir de l'amour en retour quand on se vend sur un trottoir.
Pathétique et révoltant.
Content de ne pas être Américain, même si tout n'est pas parfait ici non plus.
Après, hormis l'apport sur le CV, l'avantage reste que chez les big two, les artistes sont payés en amont (au moins en partie ?) de leur prestation. Pour le creator owned, la "liberté" se paye cher… les revenus étant calculés sur les gains réels, donc après coup. Peut-être que certains ont plus de précisions sur ce point ?
J'avais la même question que Vinc : les artistes sont-ils payés même si leur histoire n'est pas publiée. D'autant qu'il doit s'agir de commande : je vois pas trop des auteurs décider de leur propre chef de créer une histoire avec des héros des 2 big 2 et de la soumettre en espérant qu'elle soit acceptée...
Tout ça me rappelle ce qui est arrivé à Bill Sienkiewicz sur Batman - City of Crime. Version pdf à downloader avec l'historique de cette mésaventure par David Lapham, le scénariste.
Avec cette explication de BS lui-même : "Bill Sienkiewicz I haven't read the published version, I scanned it. I guess the artist was required to follow the thumbnails/layouts Lapham regularly does for his artists, which I understand. Because when I was approached to do the series, i told the editor "it's totally fine that DL does layouts and that is part of what he paid for- more power to him- but I'm not going to follow them; I want to break down and tell the story my own way, -and I want my full rate- rather than part of my rate being taken away and given to Lapham- or asking him to accept less because of how I want to work". DC editorial agreed, knowing they'd have to 'eat ' the difference- which I think they assumed would be minimal. What I think happened is that the bean counters saw they were paying for TWO full rates for part of the art that was essentially redundant (thumbs.) I'm willing to bet the cost was more than they wanted to pay. So rather than coming to me and saying " we agreed too soon, we blew it. and we have to kill the job with you or ask you or David to accept cutting the difference--we just can't afford to pay you both of your full rates" --they instead concocted the deadline issue as a way to toss me under the bus and save face. They ate the costs of my work so far and hired a guy to do the art chores for the lower rate. The editor dumped all the pages from the server, tossed all files, leaving minimal trace of the project. it all happened very fast. Again , the rate issue is pure speculation on my part, though it seems to check all the boxes for the real-world scenario , but no one has ever confirmed it. I just dropped it and moved on. Of course, years later DC came to me and said , "real shame about that project falling apart- do you still have the originals ? we'd love to publish it." Go figure."
Oui, il y a normalement un contrat entre les parties pour cela.
Cependant, les contre-exemples, où l'absence de contrat, ou le montage du contrat, rentrent en collision avec l'art qui bouillonne dans la tête des artistes, existent.
Pour le cas 1, rappelez-vous de la GN du Punisher par Lee et Potts dont on avait parlé il y a quelques temps :
" Once Jim joined DC Comics, that pretty much put the nail in the coffin. Marvel has tried a couple times to get me to finish the graphic novel with another artist, but I really felt that it was a very tight collaboration between Jim and myself — and it wouldn’t be the same. So I refused. Also, Jim and I never got a contract for the graphic novel. We never signed any vouchers or ever got paid for any of the work we did, so Marvel doesn’t actually own the rights to publish any of it. "
Pour le cas 2, repensons à la GN de Superman par BWS :
" It’s a story about two people -- when Superman meets Lois Lane. But it took seven bleedin’ months to figure out the contract, while I’m sitting poised, pencil in hand . . . you want to see it?” With this, we look over one of the best looking Superman stories I’ve ever seen. “It’s been gathering dust for about a year. So I kept saying, look, I’m ready and I’m rolling on this thing. And they say just give us a while to work out the contract. Then they got it into their heads that I was working on the story behind the scenes before the contract was done, and they were right. I was agonizing over not working, I was bursting with inspiration and they said no, don’t work on it. Seven months later there’s a contract -- SEVEN MONTHS! By that time my energy had dissipated and my spirit had imploded. Talk about red tape, I’ve never experienced anything like that.” [...] The fact is I should never have listened to ‘em, I should’ve just continued making the book behind their backs and when the bloody contract was sorted out I’d’ve had the book done. "
10 commentaires:
Du très bon Janson qui a fini sur la touche... :-(
Il en a dévoilé les raisons ?
aucune idée, et pas sur que les auteurs le sachent vraiment
Il faut avoir une abnégation de moine-martyr pour faire ce métier chez les Big Two.
Et plus encore quand on a du talent.
Parfois, des lecteurs me demandent si j'ai essayé de bosser pour Marvel. Juste proposé.
Et vraiment, talent/capacité mises à part, passé aussi le plaisir de fan de dessiner au moins une fois un personnage qu'on a aimé enfant et ado... la réponse est :
Pourquoi perdre une heure de ma vie à contacter des gens qui traitent aussi mal des auteurs, y compris des vétérans absolument talentueux ?
(exemple, également, avec Rick Leonardi dans ton post précédent).
Il n'y a rien à attendre d'eux, plus que jamais, si ce n'est espérer avoir de l'amour en retour quand on se vend sur un trottoir.
Pathétique et révoltant.
Content de ne pas être Américain, même si tout n'est pas parfait ici non plus.
On ne se demande plus pourquoi le creator owned est LA voie
Après, hormis l'apport sur le CV, l'avantage reste que chez les big two, les artistes sont payés en amont (au moins en partie ?) de leur prestation.
Pour le creator owned, la "liberté" se paye cher… les revenus étant calculés sur les gains réels, donc après coup.
Peut-être que certains ont plus de précisions sur ce point ?
Oui il faut les reins solides mais pour ceux qui sont connus, et ne parlons même pas d'un Janson... Ce doit être moins frustrant
J'avais la même question que Vinc : les artistes sont-ils payés même si leur histoire n'est pas publiée. D'autant qu'il doit s'agir de commande : je vois pas trop des auteurs décider de leur propre chef de créer une histoire avec des héros des 2 big 2 et de la soumettre en espérant qu'elle soit acceptée...
Tout ça me rappelle ce qui est arrivé à Bill Sienkiewicz sur Batman - City of Crime. Version pdf à downloader avec l'historique de cette mésaventure par David Lapham, le scénariste.
Avec cette explication de BS lui-même :
"Bill Sienkiewicz
I haven't read the published version, I scanned it. I guess the artist was required to follow the thumbnails/layouts Lapham regularly does for his artists, which I understand. Because when I was approached to do the series, i told the editor "it's totally fine that DL does layouts and that is part of what he paid for- more power to him- but I'm not going to follow them; I want to break down and tell the story my own way, -and I want my full rate- rather than part of my rate being taken away and given to Lapham- or asking him to accept less because of how I want to work".
DC editorial agreed, knowing they'd have to 'eat ' the difference- which I think they assumed would be minimal. What I think happened is that the bean counters saw they were paying for TWO full rates for part of the art that was essentially redundant (thumbs.)
I'm willing to bet the cost was more than they wanted to pay. So rather than coming to me and saying " we agreed too soon, we blew it. and we have to kill the job with you or ask you or David to accept cutting the difference--we just can't afford to pay you both of your full rates" --they instead concocted the deadline issue as a way to toss me under the bus and save face. They ate the costs of my work so far and hired a guy to do the art chores for the lower rate.
The editor dumped all the pages from the server, tossed all files, leaving minimal trace of the project. it all happened very fast.
Again , the rate issue is pure speculation on my part, though it seems to check all the boxes for the real-world scenario , but no one has ever confirmed it. I just dropped it and moved on.
Of course, years later DC came to me and said , "real shame about that project falling apart- do you still have the originals ? we'd love to publish it."
Go figure."
Hallucinant !!!! Sinon des quelques exemples que j'ai eu, des pages finies et non publiées par les Big two furent payées à chaque fois
Oui, il y a normalement un contrat entre les parties pour cela.
Cependant, les contre-exemples, où l'absence de contrat, ou le montage du contrat, rentrent en collision avec l'art qui bouillonne dans la tête des artistes, existent.
Pour le cas 1, rappelez-vous de la GN du Punisher par Lee et Potts dont on avait parlé il y a quelques temps :
"
Once Jim joined DC Comics, that pretty much put the nail in the coffin. Marvel has tried a couple times to get me to finish the graphic novel with another artist, but I really felt that it was a very tight collaboration between Jim and myself — and it wouldn’t be the same. So I refused. Also, Jim and I never got a contract for the graphic novel. We never signed any vouchers or ever got paid for any of the work we did, so Marvel doesn’t actually own the rights to publish any of it.
"
https://tripwiremagazine.co.uk/headlines/scott-bradens-lost-tales-gregory-wright-and-jim-lees-punisher-nick-fury/
Pour le cas 2, repensons à la GN de Superman par BWS :
"
It’s a story about two people -- when Superman meets Lois Lane. But it took seven bleedin’ months to figure out the contract, while I’m sitting poised, pencil in hand . . . you want to see it?”
With this, we look over one of the best looking Superman stories I’ve ever seen. “It’s been gathering dust for about a year. So I kept saying, look, I’m ready and I’m rolling on this thing. And they say just give us a while to work out the contract. Then they got it into their heads that I was working on the story behind the scenes before the contract was done, and they were right. I was agonizing over not working, I was bursting with inspiration and they said no, don’t work on it. Seven months later there’s a contract -- SEVEN MONTHS! By that time my energy had dissipated and my spirit had imploded. Talk about red tape, I’ve never experienced anything like that.”
[...]
The fact is I should never have listened to ‘em, I should’ve just continued making the book behind their backs and when the bloody contract was sorted out I’d’ve had the book done.
"
http://www.barrywindsor-smith.com/studio/submedia17.html
Quand art et business se confrontent mal
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